John Bull, Layerthorpe, 1979 (c) City of York Council

The John Bull pub has been the focus of much attention recently, as it’s twenty years since it closed. Demolition followed. Gavin Aitchison’s article in The Press prompted a response in York Mix by Matthew Laverack giving another side to the story regarding the demolition of the pub, and the history leading up to it. An ‘untold story’. Very interesting to see things from the other side.

Putting aside the personal, the people, what was clearly a heated campaign, one question in particular came to mind when I was reading these articles. Not discussed there but more in keeping with this site and its focus on York’s buildings and less famous ‘heritage assets':

What would we do now if we still had the John Bull?

What if none of that had happened and the John Bull was still there, with its intact 1930s interior, and was under threat of demolition now?

I’ve read, in the years since, that the John Bull would have been listed, if it had survived a little longer. A paragraph in ‘Historic Pub Interiors’ in an English Heritage Conservation Bulletin backs this up:

The information gathered in the National Inventory and the joint project may prevent decisions being made with inadequate evidence, such as the one made about 1990 on the John Bull,York. English Heritage did not recommend listing the pub – a small, multi-room pub, complete with all its fittings but conservative architecturally – because nobody knew whether the pub was an exceptional survivor or one of many of its type. If what we know now as a result of over a decade’s survey work had been known then, it might still be possible to buy beer at the John Bull rather than a used car from its site!

A phrase leaps out: ‘because nobody knew’. We lose so many things of value because ‘nobody knew’. (Often several people do know but they don’t have the right people hearing their views, can’t get those with power and authority to take their thoughts on board.)

Clearly the ‘might still be possible’ is also a key phrase. Listing might prevent demolition but it wouldn’t be able to preserve the place as a functioning pub. Pubs with authentic historic interiors are clearly valued now more than ever, but this pub was stuck outside the walls with no obvious community around it to support it since the terraced streets around it were demolished long ago. It would appear that it had already been seen as surplus to requirements when Mr Turnbull bought the site in the late 1970s.

Interior of the John Bull, from the campaign video produced by Old Dairy Studios

Clearly by the 1990s it was seen as unique, and was thriving, and so popular I recall it being uncomfortably full on the couple of occasions I visited. I’ve tried to remember more detail about those visits. And wondered if it might be one of those places that has acquired such an iconic status, such a massive amount of fond nostalgia around it that memories get skewed and rosy and enhanced with the passing of the years. Perhaps I only went to the John Bull on one occasion rather than several. Possibly to see a band play there. I vaguely remember spending most of the evening in the beer garden.

The campaign video from back then is very powerful, and focuses on the people using the pub. It was clearly a strong community of people who used the place and really cared about it. I understand that feeling, that attachment to a place.

Did that happen at the John Bull because it had an unspoiled 1930s interior? Probably not. Why did it happen there? What made that particular building so ‘special’ as a pub?

The combination of factors, and particular people, at a particular time, I guess.

And the same can be said of a lot of other places. I remember the York Arms in the late 1980s as being similarly important, to a large group of people. I also remember fondly the Bay Horse on Gillygate, circa 1984, and the Grobs on Rougier Street at a similar time, and later the Spread Eagle, the Spotted Cow, the Bonding Warehouse.

These places meant something because of what happened there — in the case of the last three, for me personally, it was because they staged live music, and much of the time I was there I was watching friends playing that music.

None of those venues have been demolished but they’re unrecognisable now. The buildings are the same, in most cases (not the Bonding Warehouse, rather dramatically changed) but the people have changed and those times have gone. We’re older, all our lives have changed, we’ve found other things to do and different places to go. The John Bull, if it had survived as a building, if it had been listed and preserved, could it have survived as a pub? Many pubs outside the city walls are now struggling to survive, and many have been demolished.

So what we’re left with is the record of the campaign, on video, and photos, and memories recorded online, and most recently the articles prompted by the 20 year anniversary of the pub’s demise. One of which presented another side to the story many of us didn’t know.

For anyone who wasn’t around at the time, not caught up in these events, I’d recommend watching the 2-part film made in the 1990s (on YouTube: part 1 and part 2) then reading Matthew Laverack’s view of events. It’s beyond the scope of this site but I did find these representations very thought-provoking, in many ways.

The John Bull in York may be long gone but its recent history has been comprehensively recorded now from so many angles. Can the same be said of other pubs the city has lost, the other pubs demolished? Probably not.

And more of its history, from further back

the running joke among regulars was you could get served quickly or slowly – depending on whether you were served by landlady Molly Waite or barmaid Edith Rush

Also in the Press recently, the memories of a local man whose parents ran the John Bull for many years, including during the war. Highly recommended: Memories of a landlord’s son.

Thoughts?

Thinking about the building itself, as a ‘heritage asset':

Should it have been listed?

If it had been would it have been a thriving pub still?

What have we learned about assessing the ‘heritage value’ of buildings in the 20 years since it was demolished?

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John Bull, Layerthorpe, 1979 (c) City of York Council

Update: If you’re interested in Layerthorpe, you may be interested in the Layerthorpe Project website, which I created after this page (published in 2012) generated a lot of interest. And many comments – see below. Visit the Layerthorpe project site for more detail on ‘Lost Layerthorpe’.

……….

I had an email last week (Oct 2012) from someone with fond memories of the Layerthorpe area, of visiting his aunt who lived in Hallfield Road. Over the years I’ve had a number of emails from people who remember this part of York. It has changed dramatically in recent decades, as all of them mention. I’m not sure it has been improved, but it has certainly altered.

Richard said: “I loved that area and so full of atmosphere with the terrace houses etc. A year or two ago I thought I would visit York and go and have a look at the Layerthorpe area. I got the shock of my life. It is all gone and turned into a business area.”

One thing that certainly wasn’t an improvement to the street was the demolition of the John Bull pub. A discussion on Twitter has reminded me of this, and of a video I found on YouTube – which I think I’ve mentioned before on these pages but mention again because it’s so good, and many people won’t have seen it.

It includes wider views of the street and surrounding area – note the gasometer.

This video (part 1 of 2) uploaded to YouTube by Argonaut35i. Produced by Old Dairy Studios, York.

Continued in John Bull video on YouTube – part 2

Thanks to @greatemancipato for reminding me how much the John Bull is still missed.

Local character

Just a little further along Layerthorpe was another pub, The Frog Hall. The building is still there, though no longer a pub.

It’s not just the buildings of course that make the place, it’s also the people. Trev sent me this photo and memories of one of its regulars:
“Jockey Peacock or Gilles used to live in Downhill Street Layerthorpe in early 1950’s. Jockey was quite a character in his day he operated a ‘Bookies’ shop and all so ran a coke and coal deliver service. Jockey liked to drink in the Frog Hall pub when Horis Colldrick? was the landlord (Welsh Rugby Player) also enjoyed a plate of fish and chips from ‘Di Prosser’ fish and chip store … believe his wife’s name was Lou.”

If you remember this gentleman or have other memories of the Layerthorpe area you’d like to share, please add a comment.

Elsewhere on the web

John Bull memories

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21 May 2007

There’s a large amount of redevelopment gone on and still going on in the Layerthorpe and Heworth Green area, and a wander along here to have a look at the changes seemed long overdue, though it’s not the most photogenic part of York, because of all the building work.

I’ve tried to organise this page so it follows roughly the same order as the photos from a previous visit in 2004 – compare this page with York Walks /3: Layerthorpe to Heworth Green.

This building was undergoing work when I photographed it before. It had been a pub – Frog Hall – and still had its signs. Now it’s a pet shop – which seems like a useful thing to have, particularly as the one on Goodramgate has closed in recent years.

I had a wander along Hallfield Road, to look at a new bit of road. The work here, which was completed late last year, has formed a new road link between Layerthorpe and Lawrence Street, by joining up the previously unconnected Hallfield Road and James Street. At least I think that’s what’s happened. I was completely disorientated. The view though can be compared with my 2004 photo – the spire of St Lawrence’s church is visible in both.

The landmark historic chimney is still part of the landscape, thankfully. Here photographed from Layerthorpe, behind what seems to be a new office block.

Morrisons are building a supermarket in the area around the chimney, off Foss Islands Road. They put a planning application in to put MORRISONS in big letters down the side of the chimney. Thankfully it was dismissed as “an appalling idea”.

Some cities have loads of old chimneys like this – but this is our only one, and it shouldn’t be treated like some supermarket’s flagpole. Though they may reapply with this kind of idea? – a pulley system attached so they can hoist up it plastic flags advertising any good “3 for the price of 2″ offers?

Unfortunately the snicket I used last time, to cut through to Heworth Green, is closed, presumably because of the building work, so I had to walk round the long way to reach Heworth Green.

This snicket skirts the old gas works site. The land has been “decontaminated” in recent years, ready for the building work which is now in progress. Gas used to be made here – in the days of “town gas” – and the ground was full of nasties that had leeched into it from that industry. I’m not sure what they do with the foul stuff they dig up – presumably put it somewhere else. But the excavation has apparently left them with handy underground parking spaces for the new development.

When I took photos here before, it was just a load of mud and mess. Now the building work has started, and around the site are ads for the new buildings – some offices, some residential.

The adverts on the hoardings are breathlessly enthusiastic, and I’ve mentioned them elsewhere . . .

It’s so “cool” and “exciting” and “timeless” in there, I was rattling the metal fences desperately, trying to get in.

Over the other side of Heworth Green, not covered on my previous walk here, as there wasn’t anything noticeable. Now, three years on, it’s another building site, obviously partly completed. I don’t really find these attractive, but then the muddy bit in front of them and the site’s fencing doesn’t set them off that well. I feel sympathy for the people living in this area, though, who seem to be surrounded by building sites.

I’ve saved the best until last. At the end of Heworth Green, next to the new Bellway buildings, and opposite the Persimmon site, is Heworth Croft, recently converted as part of the area’s redevelopment. As we can see, it’s a beautifully proportioned Victorian house. It dates from around 1842, and is in an Italianate style, in white brick. They knew how to build them in those days, didn’t they, and it’s good to see it’s been remodelled, rather than demolished. (Shame about the burglar alarms, though – better round the back perhaps?)

The interior has no doubt been divided up, probably not for the first time in its long history, so that the spacious and well-proportioned rooms are probably not so spacious and well-proportioned*. But we don’t have the space now for aesthetics, we just have to get as many people into this city as we possibly can.

* note: Feb 2009 – since writing the above a resident of Heworth Croft has emailed me to clarify that the character of the building has been respected and that “the rooms are still well proportioned and have ample space”.

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